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Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats etc
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Author:  Hounddog [ June 13th, 2012, 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats etc
Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats and Points.
They were on another site and got deleted.
Anyway, it is good to fresh everyone

T Engine Rules in T850 and T750
T850
The questions are only about the 56 OMC T850 and the 49.9 in T750
So I will address those two only.
T850 in UIM is 53 cubic inch. That was to allow for the 70 Yamaha. That motor is no longer allowed in T850 in UIM.
We expanded the allowed motors to 60 cubic inch for 2 stroke models to cover the motors we had available in Canada. We then tested the different motor to come up with a method to equalize them and keep it simple to inspect.
So for the 56’r. There are several blocks the early production [sand], the late 80’s foam in both fishing and SST 60 and the 2000 blocks.
With 160 lbs compression all are legal. Normally putting an SST 60 head on a non-machined fishing block gets you the 155 to 165 lbs. Simple. The SST 60 needs a different head to go down from 180 to 160. So we detuned it and increased the stock motor. They all should run in the 75 to 80 hp range. So it is also a horsepower/performance [speed] class.
So in the case of the 56. It is 3 cubic inches larger than the Yamaha but LEGAL in the class.
T750
Again as T850. T750 is a horsepower/performance [speed] class.
The engine size is 45 cubic inch in UIM. They only run one motor the Tohatsu.
We expanded the class to include more 2 stroke motors and more boat and motor combinations even if the motors were larger. If the boat runs in the speed range of the TRUE T750s then it can race.
The range is between 50 and 60 mph.
So to answer the question about the 3 cylinder 49.9 fishing Mercury’s 50 to 70 hp .
Based on the reports and tests. Those motors have no advantage over the OMC 60, the Yamaha 50 and the Tohatsu 50. So they can run. They are 5 cubic inches bigger and LEGAL.

RUNNING OF HEATS
When we have a large boat count. Racers can normally choose the group they want to race with. We normally try and have the experienced racers and the FAST 56 motors run in one heat. However, We have thought of a change for the final heat. In that heat the top 2 from the other group move up and the bottom 2 from the fast group move down.

POINTS
Most racers do not cared about the points. We have been basing POINTS on the finishing positions and time.
Side by side battles result in slower times compared to running alone out in front. A quick boat in the slower heat has an advantage.
Sometimes points are based only on the final [example APR Superleague] SO is based on heats and time.
By moving the top 2 up. That should even out the points.
Author:  jake@elsey.ca [ June 13th, 2012, 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats
So that poses a couple questions for me. Do 49's have to have under 160 psi same as the 56's? And is that the only difference between a 56 and an sst60 - the 20 psi? Are we going to check compression?
Author:  Hounddog [ June 13th, 2012, 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats
jake@elsey.ca Questions
So that poses a couple questions for me.
Do 49's have to have under 160 psi same as the 56's?
Jake you can increase your 145 to 150 compression to 160. It is the same rules for all.
And is that the only difference between a 56 and an sst60 - the 20 psi? An SST 60, an early fishing 56 and the 2000 blocks all have different porting. The SST 60 has higher ports for more RPM. It was designed for a tunnel with far less drag compared to the T boat. We tested the SST 60 with different heads. Lowering the compression reduces the torgue and reduces the horsepower.
Are we going to check compression?
Paul has the guage if someone wants it checked it can be done.
Author:  WalkWithMax [ June 13th, 2012, 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats
Hounddog wrote:
When we have a large boat count. Racers can normally choose the group they want to race with. We normally try and have the experienced racers and the FAST 56 motors run in one heat. However, We have thought of a change for the final heat. In that heat the top 2 from the other group move up and the bottom 2 from the fast group move down.

POINTS
Most racers do not cared about the points. We have been basing POINTS on the finishing positions and time.
Side by side battles result in slower times compared to running alone out in front. A quick boat in the slower heat has an advantage.
Sometimes points are based only on the final [example APR Superleague] SO is based on heats and time.
By moving the top 2 up. That should even out the points.


I like this idea! ... How many boats is too many in one heat? 5 or less? Or if there was 12, run 7 pros and 5 Rookies? The final could then run the top 5 based on time? Just thinking out loud...
Author:  Hounddog [ June 13th, 2012, 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats
Dave's Question:
I like this idea! ... How many boats is too many in one heat? 5 or less? Or if there was 12, run 7 pros and 5 Rookies? The final could then run the top 5 based on time? Just thinking out loud...
Dave, a balanced number of boats per heat is nice. But, take last years race at Dunnville We had many more boats in the one heat [rookie]. The experienced heat was like two individual match races and great to watch. So, to answer your question we can split the group into different sized groups. YES we could run the final totally based on time. As you found out at Waterford, the water is much rougher with 8 or more boats in a heat compared to 5 boats and it is a better race, especially with GOOD drivers.
Author:  Hounddog [ June 13th, 2012, 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats
Just a few thoughts about grass roots racing;
[1] most people are there for fun, competition and friendship building.
[2] most people do not have a lot of money to spend.
[3] most people lack a lot of knowledge or have been given wrong information.
[4] most people will beleive what they hear as true and not question.
[5] most people quit because they are not competitive.
[6] you have to be flexible in the rules and judge each person or a problem separately to resolve it.
[7] the class is more important than one persons conflict.
[8] word of mouth can make a class grow or destroy it.
[9] number one is safety.
[10] if you keep upsetting people in the class you will have no one to race against.
[11] if you don't like the rules and want tighter controls and want it to be more professional, move to major series. You can always come back.
[12] you may not like everything about T class, but on the world stage we are regarded as a leader in format and new ideas.
[13] look at what we have, not what we lack.
[14] speak up and get answers to your questions. Work with the group. Not against the group.
[15] welcome and support each new member.
[16] spend time with older racers. They have been there, done that and know the score.
[17] don't take the sport so serious..it is a sport for enjoyment.. Remember the really important things in life..HEALTH< HAPPENESS< PEACE OF MIND< FAMILY AND FREINDS!
Author:  jake@elsey.ca [ June 13th, 2012, 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats
Well said!
Author:  DoktorC [ June 13th, 2012, 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats
That's exactly how I feel Don....This is for fun...not money or fame...and honestly fun is more important than either.

With regard to heats...how is 20SSH running their class (with regard to scoring). The boat count is similar....and so are some of our drivers lol. We can still divide the classes however we see fit but we should be following the TORC structure in terms of heats/scoring...so the scorers/refs/flag people don't get confused.

One thing (or many...I like to ramble) I will say about dividing the boats is that in my eyes they should be divided equally and it should be a mix of ALL boats. It's good to have experienced guys running with rookies...we all raced together up until Dunnville last year so we know it works. It also gives the rookies an opportunity to learn from those more experienced drivers...and hell our "rookies" are faster than some of us experienced guys anyways. Maybe a random draw for heats or something with the top 3 or 4 of each going to the finals. My feeling is that 6-8 of the BEST boats should be in the final not a predetermined number of Experienced and Rookies and if you are basing the transfers on lap time and the "rookie" heat is really late on the clock then it gets squewed again that way.
Author:  Hydroid [ June 13th, 2012, 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats
DoktorC wrote:
That's exactly how I feel Don....This is for fun...not money or fame...and honestly fun is more important than either.

With regard to heats...how is 20SSH running their class (with regard to scoring). The boat count is similar....and so are some of our drivers lol. We can still divide the classes however we see fit but we should be following the TORC structure in terms of heats/scoring...so the scorers/refs/flag people don't get confused.

One thing (or many...I like to ramble) I will say about dividing the boats is that in my eyes they should be divided equally and it should be a mix of ALL boats. It's good to have experienced guys running with rookies...we all raced together up until Dunnville last year so we know it works. It also gives the rookies an opportunity to learn from those more experienced drivers...and hell our "rookies" are faster than some of us experienced guys anyways. Maybe a random draw for heats or something with the top 3 or 4 of each going to the finals. My feeling is that 6-8 of the BEST boats should be in the final not a predetermined number of Experienced and Rookies and if you are basing the transfers on lap time and the "rookie" heat is really late on the clock then it gets squewed again that way.


CBF/APBA rules allow a maximum of 12 boats/heat. In excess of 12, elimination heats are run.
Drivers names are randomnly chosen, determining who drives in Elim1 or Elim2.
The format at WF, the first 3 legal finishers of E1 and E2 heats automatically move on to finals, 6 boats. Prior to Finals, one consolation heat is run for boats that did not qualify to go to final from eliminations. Top 2 legal finishing boats from consolation heat go to final. Final is 8 boat total.
Example: 14 boats, therefore 2 x 7 boat Elim heats. Top 3 legal finishing boats of E1 and E2 go to final. The non-final remaining 8 boats run consolation heat, top 2 legal finishers go to final.
Final: top 3 from E1 and E2, + 2 from consolation, 8 boat total in final.

Dok, what you're suggesting is exactly mixing up vets with rookies. You could have the fastest vets jump the gun in E1 or E2, and a rookie gets bumped up to final. Yet, the vet that jumped can still qualify for final if they run a smart consi.
Example: 20SSH at WF in E1, although I had 3rd place locked up for final heat, I foolishly took out a buoy, did not qualify for final. But I had chance to place 1or2 in consi, to get into final. I placed first in consi, went to final.
This really mixes it up bt vets and rookies, and not to be feared by rookies.
20SSH was a great experience also for Kris(rookie). He was aprehensive of a large field, but I told him if we get over 12 boats, just take one heat ata time. Sunday he placed 2nd overall in 20SSH.
Author:  WalkWithMax [ June 13th, 2012, 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Open discussion on the T Engine rules, Running of heats
Don,
You made some great points there! Safety is number one! I had so much fun on the weekend! Todd mentioned that racing in the states is so cut throat! Everyone takes it way too seriously! We have such a great bunch of guys to race with! ...although I haven't ran with the Dok yet?! :D Can't wait for Gravenhurst! 8-)
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