New T Class proposal

LittleCharger · **Joined:** April 1st, 2012, 12:29 am **Posts:** 1445

Hounddog wrote:

You should also consider having the 90 Yamaha included in outlaw. It was competitive and in APBA's first revision of FV when they went mod. It will be interesting to see if the manitory cell rule shows up again. These boats will run high 70's.

I discussed the yamaha 90 with Rick and we decided to sit it out for now and see how the class goes. The logic was if we introduced the 90 everyone would scramble for yamaha 90's as a mod yamaha 90 would dominate the mod OMC's. We want a smooth transition and the majority of guys have 56ers that they can take and mod now with out the cost of going out and buying a yamaha 90. The person impacted by this the most is Rick being the diehard yamaha guy and a guy who has a 90 sitting in his garage. We talked about restricting the 90 yamaha but that would conflict with one of the differences we were seeking in the mod class from T850 of no powerhead inspections.

Rick has been offered full support to switch over to a 56er, we may have to allow him to run a 90 yamaha hood so he can stuff the 56er under it! :lol:

Gotta run more thoughts on T850, T750 later. Don't forget why the classes has been successful and how you are going to sustain future growth. I don't think a full on spec class with full inspection is the answer, our races are not nationals . Spec is expensive ( Rinker sst60 powerhead $2,500, SST45 race ready $1,750-2,000 all in USD), you can't compete with a 500 powerhead against a race prepped spec powerhead. Just my opinion.

Hounddog · **Joined:** April 3rd, 2012, 1:52 pm **Posts:** 3165

I agree on both points. A mod Yamaha would be very strong and stock spec SST 60 motors are costly. I know there is a group within the class that wants a pure stock T850 class. That would be stock 70CES yamahas and 49 OMC motors only. We could do preseason inspections and sealed motors for them. That would remove the race site inspections. We may have a problem with the current racer with the OMC 56 with only the one change [the head]. They would be in the middle now and either mod the motor or go to a 49 cubic inch. More options should attract more racers!

LittleCharger · **Joined:** April 1st, 2012, 12:29 am **Posts:** 1445

Word of caution, the outlaw class is just a proposal at this stage, first it needs TORC approval and then CBF approval. Totally revamping T850 for approval at the same time could potentially be disasterous for T's if the outlaw class is not approved and the revised rules for T850 are. That's alot of 56ers sitting it out for the race season.

DoktorC · **Posted:** October 21st, 2013, 1:01 pm

Hevi Kevi wrote:

I'm with you there. If it were up to me, that's how I would do it. I would think that would make the 2 classes work the best. Problem is, everyone that ran last year with the exception of Jake, did not have a 49. Just to make it work with the motors that are out there, they could be tech'd using the SST-60 port heights for thresholds and a pocket depth for the head that everyone agrees to (maybe .500 deep or something). Could still allow the ports to be cleaned up as well since lots of motors already have that done. When it comes to the Yamaha, there must be a UIM spec sheet for that. Same thing, pocket depth everyone can agree on.
IF the class went to true 850cc and under with no touching of the ports, Many times you can find a complete 20" stinger in need of a rebuild for $500 or less. I have 3 complete untouched stinger powerheads, maybe 4, not blown up I would sell for $300 each if someone needed them. Anyone not wanting to go to outlaw could sell their 56 powerhead and still have enough money left over to buy pistons to freshen up the 49. I think it would be nice to see a class that can run in the high 60's with a motor you can buy for $1500. Or just leave T850 as it is if everyone wants that.
I'm just throwing different ideas out for people to think about. I'll be fine with whatever people decide and will be racing regardless. I'd just like to know so I can get building lol.

Both Jake and I run 850cc engines...so we could have a class of two lol.

If you use the SST60 specs for the 56'r than you may as well make it an SST60 class which will basically the outlaw class. That has been the issue all along....we've been through this 3 years in a row I think...without proper specs you can't do a real FAIR tech. Especially given the variations of 56'r blocks. Even the CES specs measure from the centerline of the engine up so that makes things a bit tricky too (but not impossible). I think that IF outlaw gets approved AND there is enough interest in revamping 850 then it should go to a straight 850cc motor class ONLY if there is the interest in inspections etc. The class works pretty well now with several winners and no one really dominating. IF the outlaw class is approved than there is a home for all the 56'rs if you choose to run one...

It's good to keep the discussion going...and try and get some input from more guys in the class too!!

Hevi Kevi · **Posted:** October 21st, 2013, 4:09 pm

LittleCharger wrote:

Word of caution, the outlaw class is just a proposal at this stage, first it needs TORC approval and then CBF approval. Totally revamping T850 for approval at the same time could potentially be disasterous for T's if the outlaw class is not approved and the revised rules for T850 are. That's alot of 56ers sitting it out for the race season.

So what you're saying is one thing at a time is safest. Maybe start with trying for outlaw for next year and leaving 850 as it was for 2014? It would be nice to see everyone just running the same class and have a huge boat count but I don't think everyone is going to want to go in the same direction whatever that might be and I'd rather see 2 classes than have people quit. 2 classes may also increase our entries as some people may want to run both classes (I know of at least one other person besides me that would do that). The choice may help bring in new people as well.

Hevi Kevi · **Posted:** October 21st, 2013, 4:16 pm

DoktorC wrote:

Hevi Kevi wrote:

I'm with you there. If it were up to me, that's how I would do it. I would think that would make the 2 classes work the best. Problem is, everyone that ran last year with the exception of Jake, did not have a 49. Just to make it work with the motors that are out there, they could be tech'd using the SST-60 port heights for thresholds and a pocket depth for the head that everyone agrees to (maybe .500 deep or something). Could still allow the ports to be cleaned up as well since lots of motors already have that done. When it comes to the Yamaha, there must be a UIM spec sheet for that. Same thing, pocket depth everyone can agree on.
IF the class went to true 850cc and under with no touching of the ports, Many times you can find a complete 20" stinger in need of a rebuild for $500 or less. I have 3 complete untouched stinger powerheads, maybe 4, not blown up I would sell for $300 each if someone needed them. Anyone not wanting to go to outlaw could sell their 56 powerhead and still have enough money left over to buy pistons to freshen up the 49. I think it would be nice to see a class that can run in the high 60's with a motor you can buy for $1500. Or just leave T850 as it is if everyone wants that.
I'm just throwing different ideas out for people to think about. I'll be fine with whatever people decide and will be racing regardless. I'd just like to know so I can get building lol.

Both Jake and I run 850cc engines...so we could have a class of two lol.

If you use the SST60 specs for the 56'r than you may as well make it an SST60 class which will basically the outlaw class. That has been the issue all along....we've been through this 3 years in a row I think...without proper specs you can't do a real FAIR tech. Especially given the variations of 56'r blocks. Even the CES specs measure from the centerline of the engine up so that makes things a bit tricky too (but not impossible). I think that IF outlaw gets approved AND there is enough interest in revamping 850 then it should go to a straight 850cc motor class ONLY if there is the interest in inspections etc. The class works pretty well now with several winners and no one really dominating. IF the outlaw class is approved than there is a home for all the 56'rs if you choose to run one...

It's good to keep the discussion going...and try and get some input from more guys in the class too!!

I'll put together a 49, That's 3
I'm surprised more haven't chimed in. It would be nice to hear from more people in the group than this

Hounddog · **Joined:** April 3rd, 2012, 1:52 pm **Posts:** 3165

You don't have to have this in the rules at all. You can run the boats in different heats. The main concern from the other T racers is not being competitive in the group their racing in. If 5 racers want this then they just race in that group same as if we had 5 ETECs or 5 4 strokes. We know enough about the current boats to slot them in their best heat. The advantage is the outlaw group is on their own. Some will be more mod and faster others in that group. That is the chance you take. But, once your in that group, you cannot come back to race with the other boats with the same combo just because your slow in the outlaw group.
The majority now run 65 to 69 mph with our current rules. Anyone can win. The outlaws are going to run 72 to 77 mph.

WalkWithMax · **Posted:** October 22nd, 2013, 9:06 am

One way to make 49's and 56's more competitive in T850 might be to run a stock head on a 56? This would mean limiting the 56 to around 140lbs of compression? I believe LC ran a stock 56 powerhead at Waterford that ran mid sixties at best? Then again, what do I know... I'm a hydro guy now!

Dave.

Hounddog · **Joined:** April 3rd, 2012, 1:52 pm **Posts:** 3165

We are working on a go-no go guage that is inserted thru the spark plug hole and goes to the side of cylinder wall. There would be a different guage for each motor. The inspector positions the guage in the cylinder, you manually turn the flywheel, if the power head can go thru the full stroke cycle, it passes. If it stops when the piston hits the guage, your DQ'd.

tunnelv · **Posted:** October 22nd, 2013, 9:59 am

Hounddog wrote:

You should also consider having the 90 Yamaha included in outlaw. It was competitive and in APBA's first revision of FV when they went mod. It will be interesting to see if the manitory cell rule shows up again. These boats will run high 70's.

At what speeds does the cell rule usually show up? that could put a damper on outlaw if it happened

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New T Class proposal

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